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[Music]

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greetings to our friends of astrobiology

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and welcome to ask an astrobiologist the

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show that celebrates the science and the

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scientists involved in the realm of

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astrobiology and today we're going a bit

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beyond that even into the philosophy of

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astrobiology but before we get to

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today's guests and have an awesome

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conversation in that round we have some

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of our fun little things that we do

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every month for starters we have our

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background quiz so as our longtime

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viewers know we have a picture behind

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our host every single month like this

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wonderful picture behind me and it's up

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to you in the next month to guess what

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that image is so right now our producer

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and director Mike Toyota's gonna put up

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last month's picture onto the screen and

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your job was to guess what this image is

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showing that's actually fortescue falls

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in Western Australia in karijini

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national park you can see red staining

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of iron rich and oxide rich materials

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around the outside of that Canyon where

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waterfalls are flowing down this is part

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of an region that has a lot of banded

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iron formations these iron-rich

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structures that teach us a lot about the

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ancient history of the earth so we had

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several right guesses but this month our

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winner is Ben javi Dao or at beam javi

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Dao on Twitter and our winners always

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get some NASA stickers and some of our

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astrobiology graphic history books from

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last month's guest Aaron Gronstal

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so congratulations for Ben ha for that

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also we like to celebrate our friends

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out there who share on Twitter and

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Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn and

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read it in all these awesome places

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about our show about our guests and the

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awesome work they do so this month our

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ambassador of the month was actually

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doing a Roker or a rotating curation of

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an account called space of people on

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Twitter that user is Sara McIntyre or

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@xo bio Explorer so Sara thank you so

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much for doing all of your hard work for

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sharing so much awesome stuff about

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space and exoplanets at people of space

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and for being such a cool friend

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our show we really really appreciate it

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now with that out of the way I have the

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awesome chance to introduce this month's

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guests dr. Susan Schneider is joining us

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she is the current NASA Barret Bloomberg

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chair in astrobiology at the Library of

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Congress an associate professor of

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philosophy and cognitive science at

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UConn and also the director of the AI

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mind and society or Ames group at UConn

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you've seen her before in talks like at

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TEDx and Google talks she's one on other

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podcasts and shows like star talk radio

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she's written in New York Times and

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Scientific American and have several

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awesome books out there and I'm really

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really excited for our conversation

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today so dr. Schneider thank you for

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joining ask an astrobiologist thanks for

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having me yeah it's great that you could

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join us and like I said when we first

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started off here normally our show is

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about the science and scientists of

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astrobiology but that was as you pointed

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out on Facebook and other places you're

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you don't consider yourself an

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astrobiologist but actually a

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philosopher right well that's what my

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PhD is in awesome I love it I mean we're

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gonna continue consider you an

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astrobiologist because you are the chair

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of astrobiology at the LSE

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and you considered astrobiology which is

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pretty awesome I love astrobiology I've

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been having so much fun and the chair at

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the Library of Congress allows for

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people who are philosophers you know and

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cognitive scientists people in any kind

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of field to get involved I love it yeah

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and I think sometimes people some of our

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fans of our show for instance who want

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to become astrobiologists they think

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they have to get there by going through

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traditional science degrees in chemistry

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or biology or physics but there's also

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many other ways in philosophy and other

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directions you can be involved in the

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realm of astrobiology so it's so cool to

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have you as the chair of astrobiology

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currently I was lucky because a few

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years ago NASA gave me a lot of training

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in astrobiology so you know if people do

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want to go the astrobiology route I

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think they do need a ton of science

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classes but the philosophy

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it's a lot of fun and I think a lot of

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the issues that are raised for instance

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Fermi paradox the question of how we

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would detect life do connect up with

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issues in philosophy so absolutely yeah

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and I think for myself in my own

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training as a scientist I took many

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classes in philosophy and read a lot of

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works in philosophy and I think that

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really helped kind of with myself just

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gauging the questions I was asking as a

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scientist and I know that there are

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there are many many philosophers who are

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now getting involved in astrobiology in

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various ways from asking questions like

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can we define life or like you said you

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know asking the Fermi paradox and trying

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to find answers to some of these larger

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questions yeah that's right it's

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exciting to see that productive

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interdisciplinary interaction I found

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after biologists wonderfully

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interdisciplinary I thought it's awesome

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I'm so excited and stoked I have to

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admit I read and listened to artificial

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you your most recent book and there's so

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much from that book that I really really

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want to talk about but before we get

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there I'd love for our audience to hear

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a little bit if you could about your

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early life and education and what what

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took you towards becoming a philosopher

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yeah I had a sort of unusual route I

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went to UC Berkeley because I grew up in

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Northern California and I loved the

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campus and I majored a very practical

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field probably because of my family

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background I was an economics major and

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so um I went to Eastern Europe to do a

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year abroad at the crow Marx University

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of Economics in Budapest Hungary so that

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was part of the Eastern Bloc and that

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was so intriguing because we had

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basically a lot of professors interested

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in philosophy who had been banned from

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teaching the Hungarians

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because of their views because you know

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under communism the only philosophy you

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ever read was that which was written by

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Marx and Engels right

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yeah no kidding it's like the philosophy

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underground we read people like Michel

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Foucault Frederick Nietzsche and then

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sociologists like Erving Goffman and at

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the same time I was doing work in

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economics with people who were doing the

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five-year plans over there and anyway so

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if I'm really into philosophy and then I

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went back to UC Berkeley and it turned

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out that they have a really good

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philosophy program and so I started

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working with philosophers in different

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areas and my interest just over the time

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became interest in the boundary between

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science and philosophy and also the

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boundary between science and value sort

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of understanding the scope and limits of

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human knowledge understanding what we

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can't justify from within the realm of

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science versus what we could discuss in

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the realm of philosophy and so it was

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natural for me when a few years ago I

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learned of an interesting program that

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NASA was putting on to try to get people

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into astrobiology from different

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disciplines and it was near my house and

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so the center theological inquiry was

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kind enough to host me for two years and

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they brought in all these amazing

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astrobiologists you know working on a

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range of topics

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you know life on how do you find life on

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other planets you know issues involving

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synthetic biology you know and so I

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really got involved in those debates I

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got involved pretty quickly because

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there were so many philosophical issues

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that's awesome

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and one think great thing in the field

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of astrobiology is we have so many

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people coming from these different areas

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we need common language to speak to each

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other and a lot of times that comes down

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to how we actually ask our questions how

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we share our knowledge and a lot of that

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comes from philosophy and in

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astrobiology then we have this issue of

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like what is life you know trying to

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define life you've spent a lot of time

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studying the mind and the self and some

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of these questions of what is

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consciousness which just like the

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question of what is life is kind of a

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nebulous realm that we really don't have

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great explanation for I wonder if you

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could speak just for a moment about some

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of your work in that realm of trying to

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understand what consciousness is yeah

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it's so vexing right and like

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astrobiology the quest to understand

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consciousness is asking about mike's

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ultimate questions right why are we here

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well consciousness is the belt quality

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of experience right so when you're

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selling your Roma your espresso shots

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when you're hearing your dog bark these

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are inner experiences my dogs gonna go

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off Sue and start barking by the way he

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looks happy to be you right and no one

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can jump inside of your head and know

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exactly what it feels like to be you

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similarly we assume other people have

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feelings it feels like something to be

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there so consciousness is that felt

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quality of experience and it's natural

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to believe that non-human animals like

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our dogs and cats and you know it's hard

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sometimes to know we're in the animal

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kingdom consciousness begins probably

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gradual you know we can't find a firm

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place but we have a sense that it feels

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like something to be a nonhuman animal

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as well and in a similar way maybe it

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feels like something to be an alien it's

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it's a good question right because we

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don't know when we first meet aliens if

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we meet alien life what they're going to

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be like and whether or not they kind of

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have the same kind of experiences and

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feelings and understandings of their

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place in the cosmos as we do and for

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some people that becomes very terrifying

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very quickly and so you've also worked a

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lot in what the future of our species

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might be what the future of other

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biological species might be with regard

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to artificial intelligence super

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intelligence post biological beings and

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so I love first a little while to chat

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about some of those ideas do you think

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it's it's most likely that alien life

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would be post biological well the way

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that question was dispraise I probably

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say no but I'll tell you why okay and

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then you'll be a guess answer coming up

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I think alien life that we find and most

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alien life out there will probably be

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like microbial so it won't be anything

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at the level of intellectual

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sophistication to where it will kind of

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become hosts biological but now here's

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where we get to the yes so the post that

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civilizations do emerge throughout the

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universe so you know assume that life

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gets started a lot and that

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civilizations are capable of surviving

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00:12:13,319 --> 00:12:11,410
their technological maturity now of

276
00:12:16,829 --> 00:12:13,329
course that's a big issue right and we

277
00:12:18,299 --> 00:12:16,839
already see potential existential risks

278
00:12:20,009 --> 00:12:18,309
with nuclear weapons

279
00:12:22,590 --> 00:12:20,019
global warming maybe that's just a

280
00:12:25,590 --> 00:12:22,600
catastrophic risk but you know on earth

281
00:12:27,689 --> 00:12:25,600
we see a lot of issues it may be that

282
00:12:30,509 --> 00:12:27,699
civilizations inevitably do stupid

283
00:12:34,739 --> 00:12:30,519
things and don't survive sorry to be

284
00:12:38,039 --> 00:12:34,749
grim but if civilizations do survive

285
00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:38,049
their technological maturity and if life

286
00:12:44,699 --> 00:12:41,649
really is common out there right it may

287
00:12:46,409 --> 00:12:44,709
be that those civilizations are starting

288
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:46,419
to develop their own computers and

289
00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:48,160
they're starting to enhance their own

290
00:12:52,499 --> 00:12:50,079
brains in radical ways so that they're

291
00:12:55,619 --> 00:12:52,509
augmenting their intelligence or it

292
00:13:00,289 --> 00:12:55,629
could be that the AIS they create

293
00:13:03,269 --> 00:13:00,299
eventually supplant them in these cases

294
00:13:07,019 --> 00:13:03,279
intelligent life tends to become most

295
00:13:09,479 --> 00:13:07,029
biological so here's my plan now to be

296
00:13:12,569 --> 00:13:09,489
very careful about my plan the most

297
00:13:15,569 --> 00:13:12,579
intelligent alien civilizations if they

298
00:13:17,609 --> 00:13:15,579
truly exist they will be post biological

299
00:13:21,689 --> 00:13:17,619
that's because I think that AI could

300
00:13:24,419 --> 00:13:21,699
outthink biological life-forms no

301
00:13:25,919 --> 00:13:24,429
intriguing yeah Fletcher put that up too

302
00:13:28,079 --> 00:13:25,929
because you know a lot of folks know of

303
00:13:29,789 --> 00:13:28,089
the Drake Equation for instance and we

304
00:13:32,159 --> 00:13:29,799
have this factor that I think is really

305
00:13:34,109 --> 00:13:32,169
educational for a lot of people that

306
00:13:36,779 --> 00:13:34,119
gives us an idea of the length of time

307
00:13:38,939 --> 00:13:36,789
that civilizations persist that they

308
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:38,949
could be communicating via radio contact

309
00:13:43,259 --> 00:13:40,689
which is what the Drake Equation was

310
00:13:44,879 --> 00:13:43,269
initially for but so few of us ever

311
00:13:47,039 --> 00:13:44,889
considered that length of time to be

312
00:13:48,350 --> 00:13:47,049
also limited not just by a civilization

313
00:13:49,730 --> 00:13:48,360
destroying itself

314
00:13:51,710 --> 00:13:49,740
so a civilization becoming post

315
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:51,720
biological or developing artificial

316
00:13:55,579 --> 00:13:53,970
intelligence or changing from being a

317
00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:55,589
biological intelligence to becoming

318
00:14:00,769 --> 00:13:58,320
something other so that's really really

319
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:00,779
intriguing you bring that up you know to

320
00:14:07,790 --> 00:14:03,930
give credit it's due here Steven dick

321
00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:07,800
who was I believe one of the first NASA

322
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:10,110
chairs in astrobiology has made this

323
00:14:15,139 --> 00:14:11,970
point he calls with the short window

324
00:14:17,150 --> 00:14:15,149
observation right so you know you only

325
00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:17,160
have this very short window before a

326
00:14:22,190 --> 00:14:19,110
civilization from the time say they're

327
00:14:24,650 --> 00:14:22,200
turning on their radios and whatnot to

328
00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:24,660
the time at which they become hosts

329
00:14:31,730 --> 00:14:27,360
biological of course that assumes that

330
00:14:35,269 --> 00:14:31,740
life is really out there I mean you know

331
00:14:37,579 --> 00:14:35,279
I hope it is I think I think many of us

332
00:14:39,530 --> 00:14:37,589
here watching as well are very hopeful

333
00:14:40,970 --> 00:14:39,540
we grew up dreaming you know and

334
00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:40,980
watching a science fiction and wondering

335
00:14:44,540 --> 00:14:42,510
are we are we alone is there something

336
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:44,550
out there and and trying to guess what

337
00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:47,040
it might be like and you actually don't

338
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:48,510
know a lot that in studying philosophy

339
00:14:52,519 --> 00:14:50,370
and science fiction as well and some of

340
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:52,529
these ideas we presented to ourselves

341
00:14:56,060 --> 00:14:54,720
what's possible I understand that you

342
00:14:59,560 --> 00:14:56,070
also wrote a book on philosophy and

343
00:15:02,530 --> 00:14:59,570
science fiction oh yeah when I was a

344
00:15:05,420 --> 00:15:02,540
graduate student I was teaching classes

345
00:15:07,689 --> 00:15:05,430
on that topic my students loved the

346
00:15:10,639 --> 00:15:07,699
class and so I did an anthology on and

347
00:15:12,590 --> 00:15:10,649
it's you know they put out new editions

348
00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:12,600
a lot because a lot of people still

349
00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:15,750
assign it and what I do is I blended

350
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:18,720
together pieces by famous science

351
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:21,600
fiction writers like Isaac Asimov and

352
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:25,410
others and then I paired it up with a

353
00:15:32,050 --> 00:15:28,050
bunch of kind of papers and philosophy

354
00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:32,060
some in astrobiology some I wrote and

355
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:34,920
you know it's fun it's a good route in I

356
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:36,930
think you would technical common

357
00:15:41,750 --> 00:15:39,570
languages well I think science fiction

358
00:15:44,540 --> 00:15:41,760
is the kind of lingua franca with a lot

359
00:15:46,759 --> 00:15:44,550
of you know philosophers and in

360
00:15:49,610 --> 00:15:46,769
scientists so it's really easy to get

361
00:15:51,290 --> 00:15:49,620
started talking about issues of common

362
00:15:54,590 --> 00:15:51,300
interests we were able to just point to

363
00:15:55,759 --> 00:15:54,600
a film very quickly or you know a short

364
00:15:58,189 --> 00:15:55,769
story or something

365
00:15:59,600 --> 00:15:58,199
you know absolutely and when I was a

366
00:16:01,520 --> 00:15:59,610
student here at the University Colorado

367
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:01,530
where I'm broadcasting from right now

368
00:16:05,660 --> 00:16:03,930
one of my favorite classes it wasn't

369
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:05,670
planetary geology or biochemistry

370
00:16:09,020 --> 00:16:07,530
related my favorite course was a

371
00:16:11,060 --> 00:16:09,030
philosophy and science fiction course

372
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:11,070
that we had here and kind of delving

373
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:12,330
into some of these more philosophical

374
00:16:16,190 --> 00:16:14,130
issues and things that I thought about a

375
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:16,200
lot and one thing in that course I'd

376
00:16:19,910 --> 00:16:17,370
like to bring up that that I thought

377
00:16:21,460 --> 00:16:19,920
about was was Frankenstein and Mary

378
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:21,470
Shelley's Frankenstein which she

379
00:16:26,540 --> 00:16:24,450
subtitled the modern Prometheus we have

380
00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:26,550
this character of Victor Frankenstein he

381
00:16:31,130 --> 00:16:28,620
creates his creature and then it becomes

382
00:16:33,140 --> 00:16:31,140
the destruction of his life because he

383
00:16:35,540 --> 00:16:33,150
gave that creature the spark of fire the

384
00:16:37,940 --> 00:16:35,550
spark of life but didn't give it the

385
00:16:40,340 --> 00:16:37,950
love and the compassion and give it

386
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:40,350
understanding of what it was and I

387
00:16:43,850 --> 00:16:42,090
wonder if in some way that relates to

388
00:16:46,580 --> 00:16:43,860
what we're looking at for the future

389
00:16:47,750 --> 00:16:46,590
with AI right now a lot of people who

390
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:47,760
are worried about artificial

391
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:49,170
intelligence in the future for our

392
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:52,170
species are worried that if we don't do

393
00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:55,440
the work now to code in some level of

394
00:17:00,350 --> 00:16:57,810
morality or love or respect or

395
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:00,360
understanding that kind of relates back

396
00:17:05,929 --> 00:17:02,730
to what we are as humans that we might

397
00:17:07,130 --> 00:17:05,939
lose control of that AI how often is

398
00:17:11,449 --> 00:17:07,140
that really discussed in the philosophy

399
00:17:14,990 --> 00:17:11,459
realm well I think it's discussed a lot

400
00:17:17,780 --> 00:17:15,000
now there was a book by me boström

401
00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:17,790
called super intelligence it came out

402
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:19,850
about I think it's about four years ago

403
00:17:25,370 --> 00:17:23,970
that really raised these issues in a

404
00:17:26,870 --> 00:17:25,380
very public way it became a New York

405
00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:26,880
Times bestseller and really he was

406
00:17:31,940 --> 00:17:29,520
drawing from work by a lot of people

407
00:17:35,330 --> 00:17:31,950
that had been done over the last decade

408
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:35,340
and one of the big issues that people

409
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:37,290
worry about is the control problem and

410
00:17:42,650 --> 00:17:40,010
that's the problem it should we create

411
00:17:44,810 --> 00:17:42,660
human level intelligence or even

412
00:17:48,260 --> 00:17:44,820
intelligence it's not exactly like us

413
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:48,270
but you know is intellectually

414
00:17:53,330 --> 00:17:50,400
sophisticated it could be that it

415
00:17:56,450 --> 00:17:53,340
quickly surpasses us and becomes super

416
00:17:57,830 --> 00:17:56,460
intelligent which is the name for a

417
00:17:59,840 --> 00:17:57,840
hypothetical form of artificial

418
00:18:01,940 --> 00:17:59,850
intelligence that outsmarts us in every

419
00:18:04,340 --> 00:18:01,950
respect and then we'll lose control of

420
00:18:07,730 --> 00:18:04,350
it because obviously if it's super

421
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:07,740
intelligent it's already thought of the

422
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:09,120
different ways that we'll try to control

423
00:18:13,580 --> 00:18:11,130
it and so what you want to do is try to

424
00:18:15,379 --> 00:18:13,590
from the get-go

425
00:18:18,169 --> 00:18:15,389
you know create our

426
00:18:21,889 --> 00:18:18,179
official intelligent systems that are

427
00:18:24,139 --> 00:18:21,899
human friendly and there's $90 going

428
00:18:26,749 --> 00:18:24,149
into the creation of human friendly AI

429
00:18:29,690 --> 00:18:26,759
it's tricky it's really tricky I mean

430
00:18:31,729 --> 00:18:29,700
you know just consider a bit ethicists

431
00:18:35,839 --> 00:18:31,739
don't even agree on what the correct

432
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:35,849
ethical system is so if you want to code

433
00:18:40,940 --> 00:18:39,450
in rules which ones do you use and of

434
00:18:43,339 --> 00:18:40,950
course since the system super

435
00:18:45,019 --> 00:18:43,349
intelligent it's gonna just like rewrite

436
00:18:47,569 --> 00:18:45,029
them in fact it's gonna be rewriting

437
00:18:49,909 --> 00:18:47,579
itself it'll have what are called

438
00:18:52,069 --> 00:18:49,919
recursive self-improvement algorithms

439
00:18:54,079 --> 00:18:52,079
it'll be changing its architecture

440
00:18:56,269 --> 00:18:54,089
potentially in very fundamental ways and

441
00:18:59,629 --> 00:18:56,279
so you know you might think we'll just

442
00:19:01,969 --> 00:18:59,639
kind of give it give it like a childhood

443
00:19:04,009 --> 00:19:01,979
and see what it comes up with I mean

444
00:19:08,539 --> 00:19:04,019
it's a different strategies were being

445
00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:08,549
utilized right now is moving very

446
00:19:14,899 --> 00:19:11,849
quickly that's that's a thing right

447
00:19:17,810 --> 00:19:14,909
it could be in 30 years we have greater

448
00:19:19,789 --> 00:19:17,820
than human intelligence even my own

449
00:19:22,310 --> 00:19:19,799
views on this are pretty eating Socratic

450
00:19:24,259 --> 00:19:22,320
you know I think I don't even think

451
00:19:27,319 --> 00:19:24,269
we're gonna have technically human level

452
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:27,329
intelligence I think we'll get smarter

453
00:19:32,449 --> 00:19:29,690
than human level intelligence

454
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:32,459
interesting it reminds me of Isaac

455
00:19:37,310 --> 00:19:35,039
Asimov's I Robot as well a lot of folks

456
00:19:38,810 --> 00:19:37,320
loves to talk about these robot laws

457
00:19:41,479 --> 00:19:38,820
that he created for controlling robots

458
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:41,489
but that the main point of the story was

459
00:19:44,899 --> 00:19:43,200
that the laws never worked the way that

460
00:19:47,299 --> 00:19:44,909
they were intended they always caused

461
00:19:49,399 --> 00:19:47,309
all of these paradoxes and catastrophes

462
00:19:51,109 --> 00:19:49,409
because the robots just didn't know how

463
00:19:52,999 --> 00:19:51,119
to handle having these control laws so

464
00:19:54,279 --> 00:19:53,009
that's a really interesting point that

465
00:19:57,319 --> 00:19:54,289
you know it's important to start now

466
00:19:59,569 --> 00:19:57,329
trying to have some control I do in

467
00:20:01,430 --> 00:19:59,579
remind our viewers right now if you want

468
00:20:03,589 --> 00:20:01,440
to ask questions in the second net chat

469
00:20:06,169 --> 00:20:03,599
window or NASA Astrobiology Facebook

470
00:20:07,369 --> 00:20:06,179
page you can do that also any questions

471
00:20:10,749 --> 00:20:07,379
for dr. Schneider can come through

472
00:20:12,919 --> 00:20:10,759
twitter using the hashtag ask Astro bio

473
00:20:14,419 --> 00:20:12,929
so we have a little more time just

474
00:20:16,849 --> 00:20:14,429
chatting you and I before I open it up

475
00:20:18,379 --> 00:20:16,859
to the audience questions I wonder if

476
00:20:21,289 --> 00:20:18,389
you could just tell us for a little bit

477
00:20:23,060 --> 00:20:21,299
about what your primary research was or

478
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:23,070
your work was at the Library of Congress

479
00:20:29,180 --> 00:20:27,690
as the chair in astrobiology um so it's

480
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:29,190
an ongoing care

481
00:20:34,430 --> 00:20:32,369
so a last semester I was the

482
00:20:36,710 --> 00:20:34,440
distinguished scholar at the library and

483
00:20:38,479 --> 00:20:36,720
I finished a book called artificial you

484
00:20:42,019 --> 00:20:38,489
AI in the future of your mind which is

485
00:20:45,259 --> 00:20:42,029
now available for sale and that had some

486
00:20:47,479 --> 00:20:45,269
chapters in astrobiology and talks about

487
00:20:48,229 --> 00:20:47,489
the issues that we just discussed and

488
00:20:51,139 --> 00:20:48,239
many others

489
00:20:55,339 --> 00:20:51,149
and now as chair I'm writing another

490
00:20:58,190 --> 00:20:55,349
book coming out with Norton with Oxford

491
00:21:01,519 --> 00:20:58,200
as the Commonwealth distributor for

492
00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:01,529
publishers and it's going to be on the

493
00:21:07,879 --> 00:21:04,769
space of intelligent system and I'm so

494
00:21:09,469 --> 00:21:07,889
excited about that because I'm a

495
00:21:11,389 --> 00:21:09,479
cognitive scientist as well as a

496
00:21:14,810 --> 00:21:11,399
philosopher and so now I get to think

497
00:21:18,049 --> 00:21:14,820
through the details of deep learning

498
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:18,059
systems versus different kinds of

499
00:21:22,849 --> 00:21:20,330
biological systems such as the octopus

500
00:21:24,830 --> 00:21:22,859
versus the human and then what I'm

501
00:21:28,369 --> 00:21:24,840
looking at is the limits of human

502
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:28,379
intelligence so in what ways can we

503
00:21:33,940 --> 00:21:30,450
ought meant the brain and will we

504
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:33,950
ultimately be able to out think AI and

505
00:21:38,509 --> 00:21:36,450
what's the potential for biological

506
00:21:41,419 --> 00:21:38,519
organisms throughout the universe to

507
00:21:42,889 --> 00:21:41,429
outthink AI so this is fun because it's

508
00:21:45,799 --> 00:21:42,899
like cognitive science meets

509
00:21:47,989 --> 00:21:45,809
astrobiology meets philosophy and then

510
00:21:50,899 --> 00:21:47,999
meets a hip hearty dose of ethics

511
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,909
because one of the main concerns that

512
00:21:55,849 --> 00:21:52,320
the later chapters is what should we

513
00:21:57,349 --> 00:21:55,859
value about intelligence systems and

514
00:21:59,930 --> 00:21:57,359
that which matters

515
00:22:01,580 --> 00:21:59,940
I look forward to reading that - I read

516
00:22:02,570 --> 00:22:01,590
artificial you and I'd look forward to

517
00:22:04,389 --> 00:22:02,580
reading this next book do you have a

518
00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:04,399
title for it yet but a chance

519
00:22:09,229 --> 00:22:06,049
tentatively called

520
00:22:12,289 --> 00:22:09,239
from bio to bit our place in a universe

521
00:22:16,879 --> 00:22:12,299
of intelligence systems ok love it

522
00:22:20,539 --> 00:22:16,889
sounds awesome work done on it why did

523
00:22:22,940 --> 00:22:20,549
you get over this stupid cold yeah that

524
00:22:24,139 --> 00:22:22,950
time of year we're flying or flying here

525
00:22:25,909 --> 00:22:24,149
a couple of weeks with my son for the

526
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:25,919
very first time he's five months old and

527
00:22:30,169 --> 00:22:27,690
it's kind of worrisome right this time

528
00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:30,179
of year flying on airplanes with all the

529
00:22:34,129 --> 00:22:32,159
sickness in the air and the dry dryness

530
00:22:37,639 --> 00:22:34,139
of the air and stuff but should be

531
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:37,649
exciting you know when I think of a baby

532
00:22:41,089 --> 00:22:39,570
on an airplane the first thing I think

533
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:41,099
about it's not that they're gonna get

534
00:22:49,740 --> 00:22:47,490
beside us we'll be okay with the fact

535
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:49,750
but I think he's only five months it's

536
00:22:53,310 --> 00:22:51,610
just the one and one-year-old kind of

537
00:22:56,190 --> 00:22:53,320
age I think where it's it's most

538
00:22:57,930 --> 00:22:56,200
worrisome so we'll see fingers crossed

539
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:57,940
before we do open up the questions for

540
00:23:01,769 --> 00:22:59,440
our audience

541
00:23:04,620 --> 00:23:01,779
we always love just showcasing a bit

542
00:23:07,649 --> 00:23:04,630
about our guests beyond just their work

543
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:07,659
relevant to astrobiology about their

544
00:23:13,289 --> 00:23:10,690
lives I understand in your case so for

545
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:13,299
someone who studies how you know the

546
00:23:17,940 --> 00:23:15,850
mind and the self and the feeder future

547
00:23:20,340 --> 00:23:17,950
of artificial intelligence humanity and

548
00:23:22,380 --> 00:23:20,350
super intelligence and post biological

549
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:22,390
aliens and all of these really kind of

550
00:23:28,620 --> 00:23:24,970
techno focused things I understand that

551
00:23:36,380 --> 00:23:28,630
you also live on an 1800s farm and you

552
00:23:40,409 --> 00:23:38,519
because you know if you write about all

553
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:40,419
this I fight this topia stuff it's

554
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:42,010
probably for the best that you don't

555
00:23:47,310 --> 00:23:45,850
live around all this technology internet

556
00:23:50,970 --> 00:23:47,320
and stuff but like you know all the

557
00:23:53,159 --> 00:23:50,980
furniture everything's old and I like

558
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:53,169
just the peacefulness of it I'm pretty

559
00:23:58,019 --> 00:23:55,570
good cluesive actually I mean I don't

560
00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:58,029
know and I go out a lot I do think I

561
00:24:06,510 --> 00:24:00,880
like to come home to the farm you know

562
00:24:09,269 --> 00:24:06,520
service my husband you know that's

563
00:24:11,159 --> 00:24:09,279
awesome I'm curious you know do you find

564
00:24:13,710 --> 00:24:11,169
that engaging with nature by kind of

565
00:24:15,330 --> 00:24:13,720
being around these animals in some way

566
00:24:18,269 --> 00:24:15,340
kind of helps you to kind of frame your

567
00:24:20,580 --> 00:24:18,279
understanding of these ideas of self and

568
00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:20,590
consciousness and life and and aliens

569
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:23,049
and those kind of things yeah actually

570
00:24:30,810 --> 00:24:27,490
um you know I've been really worried

571
00:24:33,029 --> 00:24:30,820
about Animal Liberation lately um and I

572
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:33,039
know that you know proponents of Animal

573
00:24:37,740 --> 00:24:34,480
Liberation will say you're not supposed

574
00:24:39,269 --> 00:24:37,750
to have like pets and a Barb and you

575
00:24:43,230 --> 00:24:39,279
know I get it I understand your point

576
00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:43,240
but but um I think what happened for me

577
00:24:50,610 --> 00:24:46,960
was you know it's the humbler creatures

578
00:24:53,580 --> 00:24:50,620
they have they could have very intense

579
00:24:55,049 --> 00:24:53,590
conscious experience and when I'm

580
00:24:56,730 --> 00:24:55,059
sitting here studying the possibility

581
00:24:58,950 --> 00:24:56,740
that

582
00:25:01,919 --> 00:24:58,960
the most intelligent systems may not

583
00:25:07,470 --> 00:25:01,929
even be conscious which is basically the

584
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:07,480
upshot of part of my last book and then

585
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:09,730
you contrast that to what's what's in

586
00:25:16,139 --> 00:25:13,570
the paddock right it becomes very

587
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:16,149
important to try to reduce the amount of

588
00:25:20,489 --> 00:25:18,970
suffering on the planet you know you

589
00:25:24,139 --> 00:25:20,499
start to really care very deeply about

590
00:25:26,399 --> 00:25:24,149
that and in a way the relationship that

591
00:25:28,529 --> 00:25:26,409
advanced artificial intelligence could

592
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:28,539
have to an unenhanced human could be

593
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:32,080
quite similar to the way we relate to

594
00:25:37,350 --> 00:25:33,970
non-human animals so we should be

595
00:25:40,109 --> 00:25:37,360
careful the way we treat non-human

596
00:25:41,909 --> 00:25:40,119
animals so obviously like you know farm

597
00:25:45,029 --> 00:25:41,919
it taste it spoil be animal farm

598
00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:45,039
obviously yeah that's awesome let's we

599
00:25:49,619 --> 00:25:46,990
be judged by our robot overlords for how

600
00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:49,629
we treated other organisms and it is

601
00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:50,830
interesting you know we have this full

602
00:25:56,009 --> 00:25:53,049
range of human interaction with other

603
00:25:57,570 --> 00:25:56,019
organisms on our own planet and even

604
00:25:59,340 --> 00:25:57,580
though we have the N equals one problem

605
00:26:01,379 --> 00:25:59,350
you know what given this range of ways

606
00:26:03,139 --> 00:26:01,389
that we interact with other organisms I

607
00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:03,149
think it's a lot of fodder for us

608
00:26:07,619 --> 00:26:05,110
astrobiologists and philosophers to

609
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:07,629
think about how will interact with alien

610
00:26:11,730 --> 00:26:10,090
life when we finally meet it whether it

611
00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:11,740
will be a benevolent malevolent or

612
00:26:16,109 --> 00:26:14,230
somewhere in between those are really

613
00:26:18,570 --> 00:26:16,119
important points yeah and I actually

614
00:26:21,810 --> 00:26:18,580
have a position on that it's different

615
00:26:26,190 --> 00:26:21,820
from a lot of the astrobiologists who

616
00:26:28,619 --> 00:26:26,200
talk about post biological existence so

617
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:28,629
you know a lot of people who like

618
00:26:33,899 --> 00:26:30,610
Stephen dick and Paul Davies and seth

619
00:26:36,619 --> 00:26:33,909
shostack many others they they're

620
00:26:38,820 --> 00:26:36,629
sympathetic to the idea that

621
00:26:42,930 --> 00:26:38,830
intelligence will evolve to become post

622
00:26:45,629 --> 00:26:42,940
biological okay but a lot of these

623
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:45,639
individuals are also interested in a

624
00:26:52,049 --> 00:26:49,450
more active steady approach like seth

625
00:26:54,269 --> 00:26:52,059
paradigmatically right he's at the SETI

626
00:26:58,049 --> 00:26:54,279
Institute you know people who believe in

627
00:27:01,139 --> 00:26:58,059
active steady they want to actually call

628
00:27:04,769 --> 00:27:01,149
attention to earth they don't just want

629
00:27:06,539 --> 00:27:04,779
to passively listen right well my

630
00:27:08,759 --> 00:27:06,549
approach is a little different think

631
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:08,769
about what we said a few minutes ago

632
00:27:11,850 --> 00:27:10,210
about the

633
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:11,860
possibility of losing control of

634
00:27:19,020 --> 00:27:15,760
super-intelligent AI on earth so if your

635
00:27:21,270 --> 00:27:19,030
concerns that that issue and you believe

636
00:27:24,210 --> 00:27:21,280
that civilizations elsewhere could be

637
00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:24,220
post biological the next step should be

638
00:27:28,710 --> 00:27:26,080
something like cloaking devices not

639
00:27:30,570 --> 00:27:28,720
active setting and passive listening

640
00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:30,580
right and that's not to diminish the

641
00:27:37,940 --> 00:27:33,990
import of the quest for finding life on

642
00:27:40,620 --> 00:27:37,950
100% behind that I'm so excited about it

643
00:27:42,030 --> 00:27:40,630
but I think we have to be very cautious

644
00:27:45,420 --> 00:27:42,040
because we don't know what's out there

645
00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:45,430
right now that means so much more

646
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:48,000
advanced than us that we are so boring

647
00:27:52,530 --> 00:27:50,770
well we would never know I mean well if

648
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:52,540
maybe we're in a zoo as some have talked

649
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:53,890
about and they're just waiting for us to

650
00:27:58,710 --> 00:27:56,650
become more advanced we had Jill tarter

651
00:28:00,780 --> 00:27:58,720
on the show in a previous episode and

652
00:28:03,420 --> 00:28:00,790
she also kind of has that position that

653
00:28:04,860 --> 00:28:03,430
were not quite emotionally mature enough

654
00:28:06,420 --> 00:28:04,870
and and technologically mature enough

655
00:28:10,380 --> 00:28:06,430
yet to actually start broadcasting out

656
00:28:12,180 --> 00:28:10,390
for our audience this active SETI is

657
00:28:15,060 --> 00:28:12,190
also sometimes called Medi or messaging

658
00:28:17,010 --> 00:28:15,070
extraterrestrial intelligence the thing

659
00:28:19,020 --> 00:28:17,020
is regardless of some of our

660
00:28:21,210 --> 00:28:19,030
philosophical arguments for or against

661
00:28:24,060 --> 00:28:21,220
there are folks who are already doing

662
00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:24,070
this so for those who aren't aware there

663
00:28:28,650 --> 00:28:25,600
is a group called Metis and they already

664
00:28:30,420 --> 00:28:28,660
are sending signals out into space which

665
00:28:31,710 --> 00:28:30,430
brings up a point my friend Mike toyou

666
00:28:34,020 --> 00:28:31,720
know our producer director of the show

667
00:28:35,010 --> 00:28:34,030
and I love to talk about a lot from

668
00:28:37,650 --> 00:28:35,020
Lewis he Chen's

669
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:37,660
science fiction novels this idea of the

670
00:28:44,190 --> 00:28:40,960
dark forest if you are alone at night in

671
00:28:46,650 --> 00:28:44,200
the dark forest should you call out for

672
00:28:49,170 --> 00:28:46,660
help or to meet other hunters or should

673
00:28:51,060 --> 00:28:49,180
you be quiet and fear that the animals

674
00:28:52,830 --> 00:28:51,070
of the night might come and attack you

675
00:28:55,130 --> 00:28:52,840
and so it's a very important question

676
00:28:58,340 --> 00:28:55,140
are we setting ourselves up for

677
00:29:00,360 --> 00:28:58,350
catastrophe by sending messages out now

678
00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:00,370
so I'm very glad you brought that point

679
00:29:04,350 --> 00:29:02,110
up dr. Schneider

680
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:04,360
for our audience at home who are

681
00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:05,710
watching right now you can ask questions

682
00:29:10,290 --> 00:29:08,230
now in second net in the chat on the

683
00:29:13,230 --> 00:29:10,300
NASA Astrobiology Facebook page and on

684
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:13,240
twitter using hashtag ask Astro bio and

685
00:29:18,750 --> 00:29:14,530
we'll start moving into some of these

686
00:29:21,810 --> 00:29:18,760
questions now from our audience so the

687
00:29:23,940 --> 00:29:21,820
first one comes from my friend Jim Paz

688
00:29:25,710 --> 00:29:23,950
he's the director of the the CEO

689
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:25,720
of the Astro sociology Research

690
00:29:32,550 --> 00:29:30,490
Institute or a RI Jim asks as AI becomes

691
00:29:34,380 --> 00:29:32,560
more sophisticated and longer duration

692
00:29:35,790 --> 00:29:34,390
space travel and permanent settlement

693
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:35,800
continue to move forward

694
00:29:40,670 --> 00:29:38,410
how will the relationship between human

695
00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:40,680
and artificial intelligence evolve

696
00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:43,990
specifically dr. Paz wants to know how

697
00:29:52,140 --> 00:29:46,990
likely is a how scenario like in 2000 on

698
00:29:56,580 --> 00:29:52,150
a Space Odyssey oh man so it's hard to

699
00:29:59,400 --> 00:29:56,590
tell how likely that is you know really

700
00:30:03,780 --> 00:29:59,410
hard I mean I think we will end on our

701
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:03,790
artificial intelligences and you know

702
00:30:08,430 --> 00:30:05,530
there are areas of computer science that

703
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:08,440
seek to determine how trustworthy and

704
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:11,410
verifiable programs are there are all

705
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:14,490
kinds of problems right now with

706
00:30:19,290 --> 00:30:16,690
determining what exactly deep learning

707
00:30:22,940 --> 00:30:19,300
systems are even doing now that's called

708
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:22,950
the black box problem so it could be

709
00:30:29,220 --> 00:30:26,730
that we do have problems like that now I

710
00:30:30,420 --> 00:30:29,230
don't think NASA wants to build a house

711
00:30:32,130 --> 00:30:30,430
so I don't think we're gonna have

712
00:30:36,420 --> 00:30:32,140
something like that in space right I

713
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:36,430
mean you know that's the good news but

714
00:30:45,150 --> 00:30:41,010
on earth you know gotta be careful

715
00:30:46,590 --> 00:30:45,160
mm-hmm awesome yeah I mean as a sci-fi

716
00:30:49,890 --> 00:30:46,600
nerd I've always wondered you know where

717
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:49,900
we have machines coexisting with us or

718
00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:51,730
not and what would that look like but I

719
00:30:54,990 --> 00:30:52,960
can definitely see some issues right now

720
00:30:56,670 --> 00:30:55,000
with sending people into space with you

721
00:30:58,290 --> 00:30:56,680
know with minds having control of the

722
00:31:01,470 --> 00:30:58,300
ships and there are settlements without

723
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:01,480
having us have as much control so our

724
00:31:07,250 --> 00:31:05,530
next question okay you know it's not

725
00:31:11,460 --> 00:31:07,260
even clear though for these long

726
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:11,470
journeys at the body will be appropriate

727
00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:12,970
to send into space so they'd just be the

728
00:31:17,550 --> 00:31:14,310
computers fighting with each other

729
00:31:20,010 --> 00:31:17,560
mm-hmm that's true I've often lamented

730
00:31:23,610 --> 00:31:20,020
the fact that it might end up just being

731
00:31:26,910 --> 00:31:23,620
easier to send robots even in human form

732
00:31:28,710 --> 00:31:26,920
to Mars than sending us and what feels

733
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:28,720
it just it just feels kind of sad

734
00:31:33,330 --> 00:31:30,730
because it feels like we should be there

735
00:31:35,580 --> 00:31:33,340
to experience it ourselves but maybe in

736
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:35,590
the future as we start developing neuro

737
00:31:39,180 --> 00:31:37,690
and and links with these robots in

738
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:39,190
various ways maybe what we will

739
00:31:46,549 --> 00:31:42,850
experience it in a certain way so yeah I

740
00:31:53,039 --> 00:31:46,559
mean we could have very immersive beyond

741
00:31:55,110 --> 00:31:53,049
that's definitely indeed our next

742
00:31:57,389 --> 00:31:55,120
question comes from a longtime friend of

743
00:31:59,220 --> 00:31:57,399
the show Marian Denton and it's not

744
00:32:00,720 --> 00:31:59,230
exactly a question she felt that she

745
00:32:03,509 --> 00:32:00,730
couldn't ask an aster by a question

746
00:32:06,029 --> 00:32:03,519
necessarily but it's kind of cool she

747
00:32:09,419 --> 00:32:06,039
wants to know from you what is human

748
00:32:13,009 --> 00:32:09,429
learning and it feels like for her

749
00:32:16,590 --> 00:32:13,019
things like the Cylons and the Borg

750
00:32:18,570 --> 00:32:16,600
makes her uncomfortable with this idea

751
00:32:20,580 --> 00:32:18,580
that maybe going beyond human learning

752
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:20,590
into something else I wonder what you

753
00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:21,970
would say to someone who wants to know

754
00:32:26,159 --> 00:32:24,190
what happens when we go beyond human

755
00:32:29,609 --> 00:32:26,169
learning and should we be scared or

756
00:32:30,539 --> 00:32:29,619
should we be hopeful that's an

757
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:30,549
interesting question

758
00:32:35,970 --> 00:32:33,690
so I think the vork

759
00:32:39,299 --> 00:32:35,980
that was designed to make us nervous

760
00:32:47,369 --> 00:32:39,309
right in the Cylon right I mean they

761
00:32:50,009 --> 00:32:47,379
were like right and I think we shouldn't

762
00:32:51,690 --> 00:32:50,019
expect though that artificial

763
00:32:54,269 --> 00:32:51,700
intelligence will be like that I mean

764
00:32:57,450 --> 00:32:54,279
like what I always tell people is we

765
00:32:59,789 --> 00:32:57,460
shouldn't make the fallacy that advanced

766
00:33:03,029 --> 00:32:59,799
AI would be anything like us unless

767
00:33:06,180 --> 00:33:03,039
humans speak to design advanced AI to

768
00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:06,190
look just like us and they may not think

769
00:33:10,049 --> 00:33:07,809
like us and I think one of the things

770
00:33:11,909 --> 00:33:10,059
about the Borg that freaks us out is

771
00:33:15,139 --> 00:33:11,919
their lack of individuality the way they

772
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:15,149
became part of the collective right back

773
00:33:21,629 --> 00:33:18,730
that could happen I mean I think it's

774
00:33:27,119 --> 00:33:21,639
really interesting to think about um you

775
00:33:29,460 --> 00:33:27,129
know would a very advanced AI have very

776
00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:29,470
different sense of identity and how a

777
00:33:35,100 --> 00:33:31,809
human does I mean we're biological

778
00:33:37,830 --> 00:33:35,110
organisms we've evolved you know from

779
00:33:40,350 --> 00:33:37,840
you know hunter-gatherers we have very

780
00:33:42,269 --> 00:33:40,360
limited intellectual capacities because

781
00:33:44,940 --> 00:33:42,279
of our evolutionary constraints like the

782
00:33:47,669 --> 00:33:44,950
size of the cranium metabolic demands AI

783
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:47,679
won't have these constraints they will

784
00:33:52,010 --> 00:33:49,170
evolve but not through

785
00:33:53,390 --> 00:33:52,020
winny and evolution right so I think

786
00:33:55,130 --> 00:33:53,400
it's interesting to ask what

787
00:33:57,470 --> 00:33:55,140
evolutionary constraints they want up

788
00:33:59,300 --> 00:33:57,480
and I think that gives us less of a

789
00:33:59,630 --> 00:33:59,310
science fictiony view of what they'll be

790
00:34:02,630 --> 00:33:59,640
like

791
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:02,640
and it's funny because the constraints

792
00:34:05,540 --> 00:34:03,930
I've come up with like I've been

793
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:05,550
thinking about this for the book that

794
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:08,510
I'm writing involve things like well

795
00:34:16,940 --> 00:34:13,290
market forces right how can we get a

796
00:34:19,130 --> 00:34:16,950
super efficient machine that you know

797
00:34:21,140 --> 00:34:19,140
does something that makes a lot of money

798
00:34:23,740 --> 00:34:21,150
as cheaply as possible because that's

799
00:34:25,820 --> 00:34:23,750
what a market force is and another

800
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:25,830
evolutionary constraint will actually be

801
00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:28,890
the AI regulations that we impose on

802
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:32,510
those system so given that those

803
00:34:37,730 --> 00:34:34,890
evolutionary factors are so vastly

804
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:37,740
different than us I'm not so sure we'll

805
00:34:45,740 --> 00:34:40,050
have something like Cylons right that's

806
00:34:48,260 --> 00:34:45,750
amputee warfare yet I have to admit

807
00:34:51,470 --> 00:34:48,270
while reading artificial you it reminded

808
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:51,480
me of the paperclip game so Nick Bostrom

809
00:34:56,030 --> 00:34:53,250
presented this this this thought

810
00:34:58,580 --> 00:34:56,040
experiment of the paperclip Maximizer an

811
00:35:01,100 --> 00:34:58,590
AI that's program is solely to create

812
00:35:02,990 --> 00:35:01,110
paper clips and if it became very very

813
00:35:06,260 --> 00:35:03,000
good at doing that it could conceivably

814
00:35:08,270 --> 00:35:06,270
to consume the entire universe just to

815
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:08,280
make paper clips so someone actually

816
00:35:12,980 --> 00:35:10,650
created the game where you can you can

817
00:35:14,420 --> 00:35:12,990
become the AI and create paper clips I

818
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:14,430
actually have it running right now on my

819
00:35:18,590 --> 00:35:16,770
home system and as of right now I've

820
00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:18,600
taken over the entire earth now sending

821
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:20,640
out Ben Newman probes to make paper

822
00:35:25,220 --> 00:35:22,850
clips around the galaxy and the universe

823
00:35:27,590 --> 00:35:25,230
and it's kind of interesting right in

824
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:27,600
this game you start off in an economic

825
00:35:32,210 --> 00:35:29,760
position taking over the markets on the

826
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:32,220
earth to make the markets be the ones

827
00:35:36,410 --> 00:35:33,810
who are once you want you to produce

828
00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:36,420
these paper clips and I'm guessing then

829
00:35:39,350 --> 00:35:37,710
this you know given your background in

830
00:35:42,350 --> 00:35:39,360
economics you kind of have a better edge

831
00:35:43,790 --> 00:35:42,360
on the fact that if AI gets control of

832
00:35:46,730 --> 00:35:43,800
our markets that a I could actually

833
00:35:48,650 --> 00:35:46,740
conceivably do whatever it wanted to do

834
00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:48,660
if it if it drove us economically in one

835
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:50,700
direction yeah I'm so worried about that

836
00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:55,170
oh god it's awful it's don't you oh yeah

837
00:36:02,570 --> 00:35:58,530
oh it's bad um I mean because like if

838
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:02,580
you think about IP intellectual property

839
00:36:06,650 --> 00:36:05,010
like this who's going to own the

840
00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:06,660
resources it's going to be the few

841
00:36:10,130 --> 00:36:08,310
individuals who have the intellectual

842
00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:10,140
property involving the algorithm since

843
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:13,710
IP law is super complicated actually

844
00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:16,050
when it comes to algorithms right it's

845
00:36:20,930 --> 00:36:19,110
hard to patent algorithms but I mean you

846
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:20,940
know getting issues involving the future

847
00:36:27,620 --> 00:36:23,010
where it could be that only a few

848
00:36:30,980 --> 00:36:27,630
individuals have vast amounts of

849
00:36:33,260 --> 00:36:30,990
resources or it could be that machines

850
00:36:36,050 --> 00:36:33,270
themselves have all the resources Matt

851
00:36:40,130 --> 00:36:36,060
gets into issues about who can own

852
00:36:43,820 --> 00:36:40,140
property right and you know with humans

853
00:36:46,100 --> 00:36:43,830
be willing to say that AIS are sentient

854
00:36:49,070 --> 00:36:46,110
systems I mean all sorts of issues so

855
00:36:52,370 --> 00:36:49,080
yeah I mean it's all too easy to think

856
00:36:55,490 --> 00:36:52,380
in a very dystopian way about these

857
00:36:58,060 --> 00:36:55,500
issues I read a lot of cyberpunk you

858
00:37:00,290 --> 00:36:58,070
know that genre a science fiction genre

859
00:37:06,410 --> 00:37:00,300
and by the way I want the link to your

860
00:37:09,110 --> 00:37:06,420
video game that sounds like yeah but I

861
00:37:11,210 --> 00:37:09,120
mean these are very real concerns and

862
00:37:14,090 --> 00:37:11,220
you know I think it's better to take a

863
00:37:17,380 --> 00:37:14,100
precautionary stance and worry about

864
00:37:20,810 --> 00:37:17,390
them because the potential devastation

865
00:37:24,830 --> 00:37:20,820
to humanity the potential human

866
00:37:27,830 --> 00:37:24,840
suffering is so great that it's better

867
00:37:29,590 --> 00:37:27,840
to assume that these kinds of things

868
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:29,600
could happen there's some probability

869
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:32,250
than to just dismiss them as science

870
00:37:38,330 --> 00:37:34,730
fiction life right that's not rational

871
00:37:41,180 --> 00:37:38,340
but people like to do it people in AI do

872
00:37:43,610 --> 00:37:41,190
it they tend to see a dichotomy between

873
00:37:46,130 --> 00:37:43,620
this here are now concerns like

874
00:37:49,820 --> 00:37:46,140
algorithmic quietness and concerns that

875
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:49,830
could come up in 30 years I agree and we

876
00:37:53,690 --> 00:37:51,450
see that across the board obviously with

877
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:53,700
from climate change and politics and all

878
00:37:57,260 --> 00:37:55,050
kinds of issues that pop up in our

879
00:37:58,730 --> 00:37:57,270
society we are very focused on the

880
00:37:59,900 --> 00:37:58,740
present and often not thinking much

881
00:38:02,930 --> 00:37:59,910
about the past or the future

882
00:38:03,980 --> 00:38:02,940
unfortunately my producer has let me

883
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:03,990
know that we have a whole bunch of

884
00:38:08,270 --> 00:38:05,490
questions to get to so I will keep

885
00:38:10,910 --> 00:38:08,280
moving here our next question comes from

886
00:38:12,420 --> 00:38:10,920
user Akash Nath who is a longtime friend

887
00:38:15,299 --> 00:38:12,430
of the show

888
00:38:18,539 --> 00:38:15,309
and she asks keeping the ideal world

889
00:38:21,410 --> 00:38:18,549
aside do you think that an artificial

890
00:38:26,029 --> 00:38:21,420
superintelligence can or will coexist

891
00:38:32,910 --> 00:38:26,039
with our human minds in the real world

892
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:32,920
yes I do actually so here's my

893
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:37,210
prediction all right um I don't think

894
00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:38,890
we'll have artificial general

895
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:42,460
intelligence in a strict sense where

896
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:46,170
that is often viewed as functionally

897
00:38:51,390 --> 00:38:49,690
like a human in every respect I think

898
00:38:54,809 --> 00:38:51,400
that'll be tricky too yes I think it's

899
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:54,819
too difficult to understand or to build

900
00:38:59,789 --> 00:38:57,130
something that's exactly like us so I

901
00:39:03,209 --> 00:38:59,799
think we'll have savant systems these

902
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:03,219
will be systems that have all kinds of

903
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:05,650
cognitive deficits but are vastly

904
00:39:11,359 --> 00:39:08,170
smarter than us in other ways and I

905
00:39:15,209 --> 00:39:11,369
think we're already seeing that AI can

906
00:39:17,549 --> 00:39:15,219
beat us at games for example it has vast

907
00:39:20,910 --> 00:39:17,559
databases so you know we can remember

908
00:39:24,450 --> 00:39:20,920
more than s it has vast perceptual

909
00:39:26,789 --> 00:39:24,460
abilities that we laughs so I think a

910
00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:26,799
savant system is not unrealistic and

911
00:39:34,469 --> 00:39:30,609
from there I think we could see that it

912
00:39:36,900 --> 00:39:34,479
could move to an system that's actually

913
00:39:39,930 --> 00:39:36,910
smarter than us in every respect without

914
00:39:41,519 --> 00:39:39,940
even achieving this AGI milestone that

915
00:39:44,999 --> 00:39:41,529
people like Nick Bostrom like to talk a

916
00:39:46,709 --> 00:39:45,009
lot about so anyway I do think that it

917
00:39:49,410 --> 00:39:46,719
couldn't live alongside us because

918
00:39:51,989 --> 00:39:49,420
humans will have options to enhance

919
00:39:54,269 --> 00:39:51,999
their brains in radical ways but many

920
00:39:58,049 --> 00:39:54,279
may not take it right I mean think about

921
00:40:00,120 --> 00:39:58,059
the Amish right now and so I think it's

922
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:00,130
going to be very important for us to

923
00:40:06,839 --> 00:40:03,910
develop ways to live alongside augmented

924
00:40:08,910 --> 00:40:06,849
humans as well as smart artificial

925
00:40:11,819 --> 00:40:08,920
intelligences but again we shouldn't

926
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:11,829
assume that it would feel like anything

927
00:40:17,969 --> 00:40:15,130
to be a savant system that it will have

928
00:40:19,170 --> 00:40:17,979
an emotional life like we have that it

929
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:19,180
will have a felt quality to this

930
00:40:24,029 --> 00:40:21,729
experience or that a super intelligence

931
00:40:26,089 --> 00:40:24,039
will be conscious right so they may

932
00:40:29,089 --> 00:40:26,099
steal so this works

933
00:40:30,190 --> 00:40:29,099
us as tools but the control problem

934
00:40:33,259 --> 00:40:30,200
looms

935
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:33,269
you know how interesting I am and I

936
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:35,249
would suggest for our audience to go

937
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:38,249
watch for instance IBM's Watson playing

938
00:40:41,930 --> 00:40:40,410
jeopardy and doing an incredible job and

939
00:40:44,839 --> 00:40:41,940
looking into some of what's going on

940
00:40:47,299 --> 00:40:44,849
right now with using machine learning to

941
00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:47,309
beat the best chess players and beat the

942
00:40:50,839 --> 00:40:49,710
best go players it's a very important

943
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:50,849
time for us right now to see these

944
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:53,910
things happening and in that realm our

945
00:40:58,039 --> 00:40:55,410
next question comes from Mohammed

946
00:41:00,710 --> 00:40:58,049
Abdullah on Facebook Mohammed wants to

947
00:41:03,769 --> 00:41:00,720
know when is an algorithm or an AI

948
00:41:05,509 --> 00:41:03,779
system considered complete and maybe a

949
00:41:07,069 --> 00:41:05,519
little more basic side what is a neural

950
00:41:13,940 --> 00:41:07,079
network with regard to artificial

951
00:41:15,170 --> 00:41:13,950
intelligence oh boy okay um so what is

952
00:41:19,039 --> 00:41:15,180
the neural network it's gonna be a

953
00:41:22,759 --> 00:41:19,049
really ok so I think these are the kind

954
00:41:25,609 --> 00:41:22,769
of questions that need longer answers so

955
00:41:28,519 --> 00:41:25,619
let me suggest that MIT has a great

956
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:28,529
machine learning intro course online for

957
00:41:36,410 --> 00:41:31,130
free that you might want to listen to ok

958
00:41:39,890 --> 00:41:36,420
but machine learning is a range of

959
00:41:42,739 --> 00:41:39,900
different techniques to get machines to

960
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:42,749
do intelligence tasks deep learning

961
00:41:48,559 --> 00:41:45,210
which people like to talk about the most

962
00:41:50,959 --> 00:41:48,569
is only one type of machine learning ok

963
00:41:53,690 --> 00:41:50,969
and that might be what you mean to ask

964
00:41:58,400 --> 00:41:53,700
about the multi-layered neural networks

965
00:42:01,459 --> 00:41:58,410
where information from rouble layer of

966
00:42:04,910 --> 00:42:01,469
the system and kind of goes up in levels

967
00:42:06,829 --> 00:42:04,920
of abstraction until an output is

968
00:42:09,109 --> 00:42:06,839
generated and there are all kinds of

969
00:42:12,739 --> 00:42:09,119
different deep learning systems there

970
00:42:15,709 --> 00:42:12,749
excitingly sophisticated so anyway

971
00:42:17,329 --> 00:42:15,719
that's a quick answer awesome well thank

972
00:42:20,059 --> 00:42:17,339
you and then we'll link that and mighty

973
00:42:21,950 --> 00:42:20,069
course as well then on the page for this

974
00:42:23,989 --> 00:42:21,960
episode when we finally launch that with

975
00:42:26,109 --> 00:42:23,999
the record version and the script and a

976
00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:26,119
transcript though so thank you for that

977
00:42:32,390 --> 00:42:28,680
we have another question from Kashi SH

978
00:42:34,130 --> 00:42:32,400
from Twitter she wasn't she asks while I

979
00:42:38,010 --> 00:42:34,140
was trying to understand and discover

980
00:42:40,620 --> 00:42:38,020
these areas of artificial intelligence

981
00:42:43,829 --> 00:42:40,630
are we also simultaneously progressing

982
00:42:45,089 --> 00:42:43,839
in our studies of the brain and our mind

983
00:42:50,970 --> 00:42:45,099
ourselves and where we're going

984
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:50,980
oh yeah that's lovely I hope so I mean

985
00:42:55,230 --> 00:42:53,530
that's that's the exciting part right I

986
00:42:57,059 --> 00:42:55,240
mean when we think about the space of

987
00:42:59,240 --> 00:42:57,069
intelligent systems we are learning

988
00:43:03,740 --> 00:42:59,250
something about what makes us special

989
00:43:06,030 --> 00:43:03,750
intellectually and emotionally ethically

990
00:43:10,380 --> 00:43:06,040
you know and I'm a philosopher of minds

991
00:43:13,349 --> 00:43:10,390
that's my primary specialization and so

992
00:43:16,410 --> 00:43:13,359
I look at the nature of the mind and ask

993
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:16,420
what are me and you know these are

994
00:43:21,710 --> 00:43:18,490
actually age-old philosophical issues

995
00:43:24,359 --> 00:43:21,720
and the fun thing about astrobiology

996
00:43:27,839 --> 00:43:24,369
artificial intelligence cognitive

997
00:43:31,020 --> 00:43:27,849
science is that they're bringing to the

998
00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:31,030
fore all sorts of intriguing conceptual

999
00:43:37,049 --> 00:43:34,089
issues from science that dialogue with

1000
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:37,059
these long-standing philosophical issues

1001
00:43:45,569 --> 00:43:41,650
inquiring into what are we know awesome

1002
00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:45,579
that is huge questions our next question

1003
00:43:51,359 --> 00:43:47,680
comes from user Andrew planet on Twitter

1004
00:43:54,030 --> 00:43:51,369
hi Andrew and Andrew asks would an AI

1005
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:54,040
that can conceive of itself as a next

1006
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:56,650
branch being evolved from humans

1007
00:44:01,920 --> 00:43:59,200
maybe then be inclined to take care of

1008
00:44:05,010 --> 00:44:01,930
its ancestors if it's already achieved

1009
00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:05,020
that level of higher-order thinking and

1010
00:44:09,780 --> 00:44:08,079
so he also asked sorry already that AI

1011
00:44:11,849 --> 00:44:09,790
for example in some ways because we've

1012
00:44:15,839 --> 00:44:11,859
used technology to attend this broadcast

1013
00:44:18,839 --> 00:44:15,849
and watch us speaking and so I think the

1014
00:44:21,299 --> 00:44:18,849
general question is will our AI that

1015
00:44:26,450 --> 00:44:21,309
comes after us look back on us with some

1016
00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:26,460
care those are two great questions so

1017
00:44:34,020 --> 00:44:30,730
yeah I'm hoping that the AI is creative

1018
00:44:39,809 --> 00:44:34,030
sentience play pen and just keep us safe

1019
00:44:41,490 --> 00:44:39,819
and take care of us right if a virtual

1020
00:44:43,380 --> 00:44:41,500
reality longevity

1021
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:43,390
I'd like to hang out until the death of

1022
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:44,890
the universe I can't even get over this

1023
00:44:49,750 --> 00:44:47,690
cold right now but

1024
00:44:51,849 --> 00:44:49,760
um and let's see what we see the other

1025
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:51,859
question there were two and I'm on so

1026
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:53,930
much cold medicine that I forgot his

1027
00:44:59,500 --> 00:44:55,730
second question was basically are are we

1028
00:45:02,349 --> 00:44:59,510
ourselves kind of a form of AI because

1029
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:02,359
we're already using technology yeah yeah

1030
00:45:06,420 --> 00:45:04,010
yeah yeah I'm interested in that

1031
00:45:11,319 --> 00:45:06,430
extended mind idea in fact I just

1032
00:45:13,530 --> 00:45:11,329
finished a paper on cyborgs with my

1033
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:13,540
frequent collaborator Joe kuraby

1034
00:45:18,250 --> 00:45:16,130
you know and some people claim yes we

1035
00:45:20,710 --> 00:45:18,260
are already cyborgs because of our

1036
00:45:23,890 --> 00:45:20,720
technology the way we relate like for

1037
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:23,900
example here's my smartphone I depends

1038
00:45:28,540 --> 00:45:26,210
on it as an external memory system and

1039
00:45:32,020 --> 00:45:28,550
so what's the difference if we like

1040
00:45:34,450 --> 00:45:32,030
stick chips in our heads then you know

1041
00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:34,460
it's really no difference in kind at all

1042
00:45:40,690 --> 00:45:37,250
um I actually disagree with that I mean

1043
00:45:41,950 --> 00:45:40,700
you know there are the thing is that the

1044
00:45:44,620 --> 00:45:41,960
biological brain is extremely

1045
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:44,630
intricately Network and we actually

1046
00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:47,450
don't know if microchips could even

1047
00:45:52,540 --> 00:45:50,000
support much of the activity of the

1048
00:45:55,540 --> 00:45:52,550
brain like how it would even work in the

1049
00:45:58,059 --> 00:45:55,550
context of the human brain we don't know

1050
00:46:01,990 --> 00:45:58,069
if a chip could serve as the neural

1051
00:46:05,349 --> 00:46:02,000
basis of consciousness for example you

1052
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:05,359
know I do think in principle you know my

1053
00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:07,760
relation my cell phone is too basic now

1054
00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:10,730
one day it could be that we put

1055
00:46:14,109 --> 00:46:12,560
microchips in the head at least in the

1056
00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:14,119
non conscious parts of the brain and

1057
00:46:18,940 --> 00:46:17,089
they're integrated in so well that we

1058
00:46:21,309 --> 00:46:18,950
would say there's a single system there

1059
00:46:23,559 --> 00:46:21,319
right but if it's into all kinds of

1060
00:46:27,550 --> 00:46:23,569
intriguing philosophical issues right I

1061
00:46:30,849 --> 00:46:27,560
mean I very carefully said combat system

1062
00:46:37,450 --> 00:46:30,859
because i'm aguii the expression minds

1063
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:37,460
or so the big question right how can you

1064
00:46:40,450 --> 00:46:38,810
even make playoffs if the mind is

1065
00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:40,460
extended if you don't say what the mind

1066
00:46:48,790 --> 00:46:43,730
or self is right oh my daughter just

1067
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:48,800
came in she's talking to the dog it's

1068
00:46:54,490 --> 00:46:52,490
awesome barking up a storm

1069
00:46:57,309 --> 00:46:54,500
yeah that's awesome yeah I unfortunately

1070
00:46:59,359 --> 00:46:57,319
have to leave my two dogs and my son at

1071
00:47:02,209 --> 00:46:59,369
home when I come to do this

1072
00:47:04,339 --> 00:47:02,219
that's a great answer our next question

1073
00:47:06,949 --> 00:47:04,349
comes from pritho Jay Paul on a second

1074
00:47:08,509 --> 00:47:06,959
net and second net and it kind of goes

1075
00:47:09,739 --> 00:47:08,519
into the realm of some of these

1076
00:47:12,289 --> 00:47:09,749
philosophical questions of whether or

1077
00:47:13,969 --> 00:47:12,299
not we're living in a simulation so

1078
00:47:16,669 --> 00:47:13,979
Preetha wants to know if it's possible

1079
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:16,679
that we actually could our cells be

1080
00:47:24,019 --> 00:47:20,249
complex programmed systems developed by

1081
00:47:25,729 --> 00:47:24,029
some superior beings or AI and if that's

1082
00:47:28,669 --> 00:47:25,739
the case are we then actually ourselves

1083
00:47:30,319 --> 00:47:28,679
a form of AI and when do we start

1084
00:47:34,099 --> 00:47:30,329
drawing the line between an artificial

1085
00:47:39,289 --> 00:47:34,109
and a natural intelligence lovely yeah

1086
00:47:41,539 --> 00:47:39,299
so your viewers may want to read about

1087
00:47:45,979 --> 00:47:41,549
the simulation argument it's quite good

1088
00:47:47,059 --> 00:47:45,989
to be honest and it suggests that we

1089
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:47,069
could in fact be in a computer

1090
00:47:53,269 --> 00:47:49,650
simulation and to be honest I love

1091
00:47:55,219 --> 00:47:53,279
teaching it because it blows the

1092
00:47:57,409 --> 00:47:55,229
students away that there's a

1093
00:47:58,819 --> 00:47:57,419
philosophical argument suggesting that

1094
00:48:01,999 --> 00:47:58,829
we could actually be in a computer

1095
00:48:03,709 --> 00:48:02,009
simulation if it's true then we're

1096
00:48:05,569 --> 00:48:03,719
sitting here talking about conscious

1097
00:48:07,309 --> 00:48:05,579
experience and wondering if machines can

1098
00:48:10,839 --> 00:48:07,319
be conscious but in fact we are in a

1099
00:48:15,789 --> 00:48:10,849
simulation and so our ultimate

1100
00:48:18,229 --> 00:48:15,799
constituents are you know computer stays

1101
00:48:21,079 --> 00:48:18,239
right and so we are artificial

1102
00:48:22,729 --> 00:48:21,089
intelligences right and a guy is

1103
00:48:24,409 --> 00:48:22,739
conscious because each of us can

1104
00:48:29,899 --> 00:48:24,419
introspect and tell that we're conscious

1105
00:48:31,729 --> 00:48:29,909
and we're AI that's so awesome you know

1106
00:48:34,189 --> 00:48:31,739
there's so many things that that opens

1107
00:48:35,269 --> 00:48:34,199
up into from the brain-in-a-vat idea and

1108
00:48:37,849 --> 00:48:35,279
whether or not we could actually know if

1109
00:48:40,069 --> 00:48:37,859
we're a brain-in-a-vat to the philosophy

1110
00:48:41,479 --> 00:48:40,079
of the matrix and Plato's allegory of

1111
00:48:43,459 --> 00:48:41,489
the cave and some of these ideas of

1112
00:48:46,849 --> 00:48:43,469
whether or not we are actually aware of

1113
00:48:48,199 --> 00:48:46,859
our actual existence so yeah some of

1114
00:48:51,199 --> 00:48:48,209
those ideas of being a simulation

1115
00:48:52,759 --> 00:48:51,209
terrify me and also make me intrigued at

1116
00:48:53,899 --> 00:48:52,769
what's actually possible in this

1117
00:48:57,259 --> 00:48:53,909
universe of ours

1118
00:48:58,729 --> 00:48:57,269
oh yeah you know there's a paper by

1119
00:49:01,009 --> 00:48:58,739
David Chalmers it's really good on this

1120
00:49:02,929 --> 00:49:01,019
cause the matrix does philosophy or the

1121
00:49:04,189 --> 00:49:02,939
matrix is metaphysics which I recommend

1122
00:49:06,829 --> 00:49:04,199
and then in science fiction and

1123
00:49:10,219 --> 00:49:06,839
philosophy I put together a bunch of

1124
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:10,229
pieces ranging from discussions of Plato

1125
00:49:16,610 --> 00:49:13,290
to the simulation

1126
00:49:18,980 --> 00:49:16,620
love it our next no worries

1127
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:18,990
our next question comes from Kashi

1128
00:49:22,580 --> 00:49:21,210
Schnepp again on Twitter Kashi she's

1129
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:22,590
always great she asked a bunch of

1130
00:49:28,340 --> 00:49:24,810
questions she's very thoughtful in her

1131
00:49:29,630 --> 00:49:28,350
approach she wants to know so we still

1132
00:49:32,510 --> 00:49:29,640
don't have cures for things like

1133
00:49:35,150 --> 00:49:32,520
Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and these

1134
00:49:37,730 --> 00:49:35,160
kinds of neurological disorders in your

1135
00:49:39,380 --> 00:49:37,740
TED talk one that we had shared you

1136
00:49:42,020 --> 00:49:39,390
talked about using microchips and

1137
00:49:43,550 --> 00:49:42,030
developing the artificial brain she

1138
00:49:46,130 --> 00:49:43,560
wants to know if you think that in that

1139
00:49:49,300 --> 00:49:46,140
process we might find here is for such

1140
00:49:54,230 --> 00:49:49,310
diseases as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's

1141
00:49:55,940 --> 00:49:54,240
yes I think that Parkinson's in

1142
00:50:00,530 --> 00:49:55,950
particular there's actual ongoing work

1143
00:50:04,550 --> 00:50:00,540
on brains right now Alzheimer's - I mean

1144
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:04,560
um there's talk of now you know an

1145
00:50:08,990 --> 00:50:06,690
better understanding of the biological

1146
00:50:11,990 --> 00:50:09,000
basis so I don't mean to suggest that

1147
00:50:14,210 --> 00:50:12,000
there won't be biological yours but I

1148
00:50:18,830 --> 00:50:14,220
also think that the possibility that you

1149
00:50:21,620 --> 00:50:18,840
could improve memory circuits through AI

1150
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:21,630
is already under development you won't

1151
00:50:24,830 --> 00:50:23,970
believe this but um Ted Berger over at

1152
00:50:27,830 --> 00:50:24,840
USC

1153
00:50:31,340 --> 00:50:27,840
he's been working for about 15 years on

1154
00:50:35,150 --> 00:50:31,350
the earth hippocampus so you have

1155
00:50:37,610 --> 00:50:35,160
individuals like Clive wearing and hm

1156
00:50:39,980 --> 00:50:37,620
their textbook cases in neuroscience

1157
00:50:42,170 --> 00:50:39,990
about people who have lost their ability

1158
00:50:45,940 --> 00:50:42,180
to lay down new memory because their

1159
00:50:50,330 --> 00:50:45,950
hippocampus is damaged Berger has a

1160
00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:50,340
study in detail the algorithm that the

1161
00:50:54,770 --> 00:50:52,110
human hippocampus runs I mean we don't

1162
00:50:56,330 --> 00:50:54,780
know you know a ton about it but we the

1163
00:50:57,950 --> 00:50:56,340
hippocampus is relatively well

1164
00:51:00,170 --> 00:50:57,960
understood in neuroscience compared to

1165
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:00,180
the rest of the brain and even a

1166
00:51:06,140 --> 00:51:02,970
coarse-grained chip that roughly

1167
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:06,150
simulates the processing of the

1168
00:51:10,910 --> 00:51:08,010
hippocampus is something he's developing

1169
00:51:14,270 --> 00:51:10,920
right now and it is in phase 3 clinical

1170
00:51:16,070 --> 00:51:14,280
trials with successes so you can look at

1171
00:51:18,110 --> 00:51:16,080
his work if you google the artificial

1172
00:51:20,870 --> 00:51:18,120
hippocampus and so there are individuals

1173
00:51:23,060 --> 00:51:20,880
right now with horrible memory deficits

1174
00:51:26,030 --> 00:51:23,070
who are using the artificial hippocampus

1175
00:51:26,660 --> 00:51:26,040
in these trials it's awesome all right

1176
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:26,670
that's we

1177
00:51:31,340 --> 00:51:29,250
humans know that's incredible I recall

1178
00:51:33,230 --> 00:51:31,350
reading Joshua Foer book moonwalking

1179
00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:33,240
with Einstein where he talks about

1180
00:51:37,460 --> 00:51:35,730
becoming a memory champion in the US and

1181
00:51:39,980 --> 00:51:37,470
competing on the world stage as a memory

1182
00:51:41,350 --> 00:51:39,990
champion and he brings up HM and some of

1183
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:41,360
these other patients who've had these

1184
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:44,640
extreme memory issues so that's really

1185
00:51:48,830 --> 00:51:46,290
intriguing research that's really cool

1186
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:48,840
though that's going on for me and so

1187
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:51,170
even if I'm kind of skeptical about

1188
00:51:56,450 --> 00:51:54,210
radical brain enhancement like I hit a

1189
00:51:58,340 --> 00:51:56,460
more cautionary note I'm extremely

1190
00:52:01,010 --> 00:51:58,350
excited about anything they can help

1191
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:01,020
individuals who are suffering with these

1192
00:52:06,590 --> 00:52:03,290
awful brain disorders

1193
00:52:09,230 --> 00:52:06,600
yeah and indeed I think we're gonna ask

1194
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:09,240
about maybe two more questions and then

1195
00:52:13,130 --> 00:52:10,770
we'll close it up here for this

1196
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:13,140
wonderful show our next question comes

1197
00:52:19,460 --> 00:52:16,770
from user organism 1974 on Twitter and

1198
00:52:21,470 --> 00:52:19,470
they asked or they want to know if it's

1199
00:52:25,070 --> 00:52:21,480
possible to send multiple ai-controlled

1200
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:25,080
missions to a variety of places to

1201
00:52:29,330 --> 00:52:26,810
search for alien life

1202
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:29,340
the idea being maybe a mother ship of

1203
00:52:33,230 --> 00:52:32,010
advanced AI sending out probes and so I

1204
00:52:34,730 --> 00:52:33,240
think they're asking whether or not you

1205
00:52:37,550 --> 00:52:34,740
think like Vannoy moon probes or

1206
00:52:39,910 --> 00:52:37,560
ai-controlled probes to go do the work

1207
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:39,920
for us of finding alien life is likely

1208
00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:43,770
yes um I talked about this in my book

1209
00:52:50,450 --> 00:52:47,760
because um I'm a frequent guest at the

1210
00:52:53,350 --> 00:52:50,460
Institute for Advanced Study and we have

1211
00:52:58,340 --> 00:52:53,360
a little group I think it's called um

1212
00:53:01,190 --> 00:52:58,350
sentient interstellar probes and so we

1213
00:53:03,050 --> 00:53:01,200
talk about these issues and so yeah

1214
00:53:06,170 --> 00:53:03,060
didn't it's in the latest book

1215
00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:06,180
artificial you and so here's one idea

1216
00:53:12,410 --> 00:53:08,910
okay so you've got project breakthrough

1217
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:12,420
starshot right and you know the famous

1218
00:53:16,910 --> 00:53:14,610
yuri milner stephen hawking project well

1219
00:53:19,670 --> 00:53:16,920
one of the founders is one of my

1220
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:19,680
co-authors and he's nature edwin turner

1221
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:22,490
great guy Astro bye after business

1222
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:28,650
anyway so why not put chips on these

1223
00:53:32,210 --> 00:53:31,290
little like cell shifts right so you

1224
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:32,220
know there's already been a hundred

1225
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:34,410
million dollars dedicated to

1226
00:53:40,220 --> 00:53:36,690
breakthrough starshot right and the idea

1227
00:53:44,710 --> 00:53:40,230
is to send these very ultra small

1228
00:53:47,870 --> 00:53:44,720
ships out to Alpha Centauri right and

1229
00:53:52,130 --> 00:53:47,880
this is right now but as far as I know

1230
00:53:53,990 --> 00:53:52,140
the fastest way to have interstellar

1231
00:53:56,780 --> 00:53:54,000
travel that we have potential to develop

1232
00:54:00,680 --> 00:53:56,790
it could go potentially a third of the

1233
00:54:04,250 --> 00:54:00,690
speed of light you know it so we have

1234
00:54:06,109 --> 00:54:04,260
that my suggestion is put some

1235
00:54:07,790 --> 00:54:06,119
microchips on these chefs there's gonna

1236
00:54:09,230 --> 00:54:07,800
be lots of them they're actually cheap

1237
00:54:11,210 --> 00:54:09,240
to produce and by the way the reason

1238
00:54:13,790 --> 00:54:11,220
they go so fast is that their mass is so

1239
00:54:18,740 --> 00:54:13,800
long right that they can go much faster

1240
00:54:20,420 --> 00:54:18,750
than you know spaceships and whatnot so

1241
00:54:21,980 --> 00:54:20,430
anyway there are technical issues that

1242
00:54:23,359 --> 00:54:21,990
are being dealt with I mean we

1243
00:54:27,590 --> 00:54:23,369
definitely not small to worry about

1244
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:27,600
stock you know Stardust you know it's

1245
00:54:34,820 --> 00:54:30,570
tearing but anyway I'm talking about

1246
00:54:38,740 --> 00:54:34,830
creating a collective intelligence as an

1247
00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:38,750
AI outpost there Alpha Centauri because

1248
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:42,000
communication speed is so slow right

1249
00:54:47,660 --> 00:54:43,890
eight year round trip I think Alpha

1250
00:54:48,650 --> 00:54:47,670
Centauri so why not configure on these

1251
00:54:52,310 --> 00:54:48,660
starships

1252
00:54:54,890 --> 00:54:52,320
a kind of interrelated network right of

1253
00:54:58,640 --> 00:54:54,900
microchips that gives rise to something

1254
00:55:00,800 --> 00:54:58,650
like a collective mind if you will now I

1255
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:00,810
don't know if AI can be conscious right

1256
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:04,170
that's just kind of fun speculation but

1257
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:06,570
any idea of having an intelligent system

1258
00:55:13,670 --> 00:55:09,690
an AI outpost is super cool on northern

1259
00:55:15,380 --> 00:55:13,680
probes don't come up but I know what

1260
00:55:19,190 --> 00:55:15,390
you're talking about it's exciting to

1261
00:55:23,030 --> 00:55:19,200
think about right but maybe they'll

1262
00:55:24,230 --> 00:55:23,040
decide to launch stuff mmm awesome it

1263
00:55:25,790 --> 00:55:24,240
also makes me wonder then you know

1264
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:25,800
looking for techno signatures these

1265
00:55:32,390 --> 00:55:28,650
signs of technological life if giant

1266
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:32,400
swarms of AI drones around a star system

1267
00:55:36,170 --> 00:55:34,170
might be something that will actually be

1268
00:55:42,230 --> 00:55:36,180
able to detect some time soon with our

1269
00:55:47,530 --> 00:55:42,240
telescopes occurred to me definitely I

1270
00:55:50,390 --> 00:55:47,540
mean you know if it turns out that the

1271
00:55:53,359 --> 00:55:50,400
best most efficient method of

1272
00:55:53,930 --> 00:55:53,369
interstellar travel at least you know to

1273
00:55:56,839 --> 00:55:53,940
view

1274
00:56:00,770 --> 00:55:56,849
remotely like as opposed to carrying

1275
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:00,780
equipment and get samples is this these

1276
00:56:05,510 --> 00:56:02,490
like cell ships they'd be very hard to

1277
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:05,520
detect and you know yet another

1278
00:56:12,529 --> 00:56:08,450
potential answer to the Fermi paradox

1279
00:56:15,620 --> 00:56:12,539
you know they're still possible answers

1280
00:56:17,029 --> 00:56:15,630
to the Fermi hero mm-hmm I think we're

1281
00:56:20,180 --> 00:56:17,039
gonna end it with one more question from

1282
00:56:23,599 --> 00:56:20,190
our longtime friend Tom Caruso who right

1283
00:56:25,819 --> 00:56:23,609
now is watching on Facebook Tom wants to

1284
00:56:28,700 --> 00:56:25,829
know so he sets it up by saying

1285
00:56:31,010 --> 00:56:28,710
environmental conservation policy has

1286
00:56:35,390 --> 00:56:31,020
historically lagged behind exploitation

1287
00:56:38,089 --> 00:56:35,400
and space law so just like AI needs some

1288
00:56:39,799 --> 00:56:38,099
moral guidelines some control humans

1289
00:56:43,460 --> 00:56:39,809
also need some guidelines for our

1290
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:43,470
self-control so he wants to know if you

1291
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:46,410
can explain your opinions on if you

1292
00:56:51,079 --> 00:56:48,450
think planetary protection environmental

1293
00:56:56,900 --> 00:56:51,089
protection are pushed to explore to

1294
00:56:59,480 --> 00:56:56,910
learn more can be aided by AI oh that's

1295
00:57:02,930 --> 00:56:59,490
really interesting yeah I mean I know

1296
00:57:05,380 --> 00:57:02,940
that NASA has people working on

1297
00:57:07,430 --> 00:57:05,390
planetary protection attorneys

1298
00:57:12,349 --> 00:57:07,440
biologists and you know it's

1299
00:57:15,019 --> 00:57:12,359
super-important right yeah and I mean

1300
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:15,029
maybe a I could facilitate some of that

1301
00:57:21,559 --> 00:57:19,410
science or even I mean this is you know

1302
00:57:25,039 --> 00:57:21,569
very cute ristic that even tell us when

1303
00:57:26,809 --> 00:57:25,049
something's been violated right so maybe

1304
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:26,819
all that awful surveillance equipment

1305
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:30,450
could be put to use right yeah they're

1306
00:57:34,099 --> 00:57:32,730
kidding their computer on earth and all

1307
00:57:37,519 --> 00:57:34,109
of a sudden you get like a notification

1308
00:57:40,130 --> 00:57:37,529
you know that such-and-such planet you

1309
00:57:44,089 --> 00:57:40,140
know somebody just completely ruined it

1310
00:57:46,940 --> 00:57:44,099
now we potential and it may be that yeah

1311
00:57:52,370 --> 00:57:46,950
you have drones out there that like go

1312
00:57:54,170 --> 00:57:52,380
look awesome I love that concept I think

1313
00:57:56,180 --> 00:57:54,180
we are at the time now unfortunately dr.

1314
00:57:58,309 --> 00:57:56,190
Schneider I really appreciate you coming

1315
00:58:00,200 --> 00:57:58,319
on the show and talking with us I do

1316
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:00,210
have to apologize to all of our viewers

1317
00:58:03,799 --> 00:58:02,250
who had questions we didn't get to we

1318
00:58:05,660 --> 00:58:03,809
actually had a whole bunch of them yet

1319
00:58:06,350 --> 00:58:05,670
so if you'd like to you can reach out

1320
00:58:08,990 --> 00:58:06,360
online

1321
00:58:11,930 --> 00:58:09,000
and find dr. Schneider her website is

1322
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:11,940
Schneider website calm you can also find

1323
00:58:15,860 --> 00:58:13,890
her TED talks her google talk is out

1324
00:58:17,510 --> 00:58:15,870
there and you can find all of her books

1325
00:58:19,970 --> 00:58:17,520
out there artificial you is now

1326
00:58:21,830 --> 00:58:19,980
available it's a wonderful read and I

1327
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:21,840
also listen to it it's a great listen as

1328
00:58:25,850 --> 00:58:24,090
well and hopefully we can keep our eye

1329
00:58:29,330 --> 00:58:25,860
out for your upcoming book and announced

1330
00:58:31,070 --> 00:58:29,340
that for our viewers as well yeah a lot

1331
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:31,080
of these issues are in artificial you

1332
00:58:37,610 --> 00:58:34,050
and I just want to say thanks for having

1333
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:37,620
me thanks to NASA response rate me this

1334
00:58:41,780 --> 00:58:39,890
year it's been really a lot of fun

1335
00:58:43,130 --> 00:58:41,790
awesome I'm so glad you were at the

1336
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:43,140
Library of Congress and thank you so

1337
00:58:48,050 --> 00:58:45,450
much for joining us on the show for all

1338
00:58:49,670 --> 00:58:48,060
of our guests watching at home we love

1339
00:58:51,410 --> 00:58:49,680
to have a little call for action to have

1340
00:58:53,570 --> 00:58:51,420
you join us in the celebration of

1341
00:58:55,820 --> 00:58:53,580
astrobiology and all the things that our

1342
00:58:58,790 --> 00:58:55,830
guests are doing so for everyone

1343
00:59:01,310 --> 00:58:58,800
watching here's a question for you how

1344
00:59:04,190 --> 00:59:01,320
do you think artificial intelligence and

1345
00:59:06,980 --> 00:59:04,200
machine learning can help NASA search

1346
00:59:09,890 --> 00:59:06,990
for life in the universe feel free to

1347
00:59:11,540 --> 00:59:09,900
pop us messages where you can ideally

1348
00:59:14,330 --> 00:59:11,550
you can tweet us your answers and your

1349
00:59:17,090 --> 00:59:14,340
ideas using hashtag ask Astro bio on

1350
00:59:18,620 --> 00:59:17,100
Twitter so for everyone at home as

1351
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:18,630
always thank you for joining us and

1352
01:00:02,870 --> 00:59:22,250
remember stay curious bye everyone